It was apparently intended to be a marching French Horn. By most accounts the Frumpet as such was a miserable failure. Here is one of the more pithy descriptions:
They are in F. Until you try to play them. Then they are not in F.Here is another quote, however, which offers a slim ray of hope:
Or any other key.They are good medicine. Laughter is good medicine.
I was 'stuck' with a few of these several years ago. Though they carry the Getzen name on the bell, you may notice the name Willson stamped on the side. These are essentially F (or E-flat if you have the extensions) cornets (by whatever name), and they don't have to be terrible.This seems to indicate that the Frumpet might be highly sensitive to the mouthpiece and that perhaps the Frumpet, while crap as a marching French Horn, could possibly be a passable tenor/contralto trumpet with the right mouthpiece. (Not something there is a great demand for, but just what I was hoping to have on the cheap.) One account says that the horn is at its best in E♭, rather than F. (They're supposed to have both tuning slides, and this one does.) My vision is of this only being used to noodle around on, or perhaps as a choir accompaniment in church using transposed music, and not necessarily trying to fit in with other instruments.The thing that helped us was forgetting the horn mouthpieces and adapters—the horns were never close to in tune with these. I had some success with E-flat horn mouthpieces for the horn players and better yet deep cup cornet mouthpieces.
I began to enjoy the horns. They cut through the band without forcing and in the hands of decent players sounded pretty good.
So my strategy, such as it is, is to try out some deep-dish cornet mouthpieces with the horn in E♭ to see if I can get it to play in tune with itself as an extra-mellow low trumpet. If it doesn't work out I can likely sell the Frumpet, that seems to happen a lot with them.
Some more interesting quotes:
One of the oft-mentioned practices in schools, according to my correspondents, is that of using trumpet or trumpet-like cornet mouthpieces or waldhorn [French Horn] mouthpieces with adapter shanks for the "substitute" or "marching" horns (mellophones, etc.). Since those instruments are often inferior versions of the althorn [tenor/alto horn], using the wrong mouthpiece—especially a cup-shaped mouthpiece—is a guarantee that any potential althorn tone quality will be lost. If the players then try to imitate the sound of their "real" instrument (i.e. trumpet, cornet, or waldhorn) then there is never any possibility for achieving a good tone quality. At a meeting with the horn section from the New York Staff Band, I learned that they all use Denis Wick mouthpieces. The solohorn player uses a #2 and the others use a #4 and a #5. These are all very funnel shaped with a slight recurve where it meets the backbore. The #2 seems similar in depth to the #5 Denis Wick (waldhorn mouthpiece) which I use when playing a single B♭ waldhorn.
And:
The Frumpet: Bell: 8in, Bore: .464, E♭ Crook, French Horn receiver.Horndawg: Had possession of one for about three weeks and found it beastly hard to hold. Its reputation for horrible intonation held up magnificently (the out of tune notes were in strange places, too!). But, the sound of the thing was just glorious. Fat, warm and rich.Mputerba: These pictures show a Frumpet with the E♭ crook installed, which (at least on my horn) is the proper choice compared to the F crook. In F, the third partial is so sharp that it is closer to C♯ than C. Love the tone though.gsmonks: This instrument is an identical experiment to the C Vocal horns made back in the 1850's until around 1870. The earliest Vocal horn had a forward-facing bell (later versions strayed from the original design and came in bell-up and bell-down configuration), used a Horn mouthpiece, but was coiled. The Vocal horns had the same intonation issues. They were made and probably were invented by Besson, although the earliest examples I have seen were made by Rudall, Carte & Rose.
And:
The Getzen Frumpet was a French Horn/Trumpet hybrid that many marching bands used in the 1960's and 1970's to substitute for the French Horn in marching bands. They have been replaced almost exclusively by the marching mellophone in the modern marching band, but those who remember the frumpet will remember them as perhaps the loudest instrument on the face of the planet. It plays incredibly loud. It also can be used as a substitute instrument for an F Alto Trumpet in a trumpet ensemble.
Yes, I'm intrigued. I have borrowed a deep-cup cornet mouthpiece, and we already have a French Horn mouthpiece, so I'm ready for its arrival.
Update: Thursday, May 7, 2009. It came! Looks pretty good, about as expected, though there were two big dents in the #2 slide, and the #3 slide appears to be stuck. There is a pivoting clamp bar missing in the case so the horn clanked around loose once the packing material was removed, I'll have to do something about that. The cornet mouthpiece wouldn't even go into the leadpipe, it was suggested that an older (as in antique) cornet mouthpiece might fit. I noodled on it awhile using the French Horn mouthpiece, and it certainly does seem to have some intonation problems. Early days, though. It sounds nice and mellow, very interesting. Fun.
I measured the shank of the French Horn mouthpiece, and it's 0.300" tapering up to about 0.320" when seated, seating depth is about 0.600". (The opening of the frumpet's leadpipe is also 0.320", as you'd expect.) My reading seems to indicate that cornet mouthpiece shanks, even old ones, start at around 0.340", which is a problem. I found an interesting mouthpiece link: http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke/Mouthpiece Dimensions.html. My reading seems to indicate that only french horn mouthpiece shanks are anywhere near the size I need.
To cure the flopping-around-in-the-case syndrome, I cut another piece of that walnut branch (that I used in the trombone case) to make a new pivoting piece to trap the horn in the case. The original screw was still there, and I modeled it after the existing piece that holds in the extra crook. Finding a suitable piece of fuzzy blue velour to cover it with might be tough. (I have a piece that came out of the Martin's case, but finding where it went to could be rather tough.)
As an experiment I removed the bell from the Martin, and while carefully holding the two horn bodies together put its slide into the frumpet, thus combining the trumpet's leadpipe with the frumpet's body. (The frumpet's slides are just a hair too large to fit into the Benge pipes.) Voila, instant low F trumpet! It sounds pretty good, in spite of the loose fit of the slide, and was more-or-less in tune with itself up the scale, at least according to my Yamaha TD-1 tuner. The Jet-Tone 4B was not very good in this hybrid, a traditional mouthpiece worked much better. The Bach 10-1/2 C seemed to work the best of what we had. And, I suspect, a little larger alto horn mouthpiece might work even better, if one had the chops for it.
I've seen double-leadpipe horn projects before, I wonder... I measured the OD's of our various trumpet tuning slides:
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Olds Ambassadors are not rare. If I could get a silver one that was crunched in the bell/valve area I could have the parts to make my alto trumpet! (Couesnons are rather more rare. Looks like silver Ambassadors are also not exactly littering the ground, crunched or not.) (It would be an alto trumpet, perhaps, but not exactly like the alto trumpet that was the peer of the frumpet. See this, the manufacturer's 1971 photograph which shows their true alto's different wrap and bell flare.)
I also did try the Ambassador leadpipe, and it worked. By eye, all three trumpet leadpipes (with receivers and tuning sleeves) are about 1/2" shorter than the frumpet's assemblage. I'm sure that can be dealt with.
My favorite tech thought he could do everything I wanted for something over $100. Less, if I could find a donor trumpet. From the chart above, however, it appears that this could be a fiddly business.
I bought some dark blue velvet to cover the new horn retaining flipper. I glued it on with contact cement, it looks much better now.
Update: Tuesday, June 9, 2009. I stopped by Hoffman's Music today, and rummaged through their back-room goodies. I ended up with a NOS Pilczuk 41-59 Accusonic silver leadpipe, rather tarnished, that nearly fits the tuning slide. It's just a tiny bit loose, but we tried a little of their extra-gooey Hetman Ultra Slide grease and it took out all the slop. They didn't have any grease to sell me, however, so I might have to get my own. I held the leadpipe parallel to the existing one for testing and then picked through their box of junker mouthpieces and grabbed an assortment of five that I thought played better than average on that horn, though it was apparent that the lowest register of the horn isn't really reachable on a trumpet-sized mouthpiece. (A trombone mouthpiece blatted down there nicely, but was otherwise ludicrous.) If I can settle on one mouthpiece I'll re-plate it as necessary with the Caswell. (One or two that I got wouldn't need it, but most were rather ratty. There is a Bach 3C, the nicest-looking one that needs no plating and actually is the front-runner, a Bach 7C, mostly for contrast with the 3C, a NEMC 7C that I thought seemed to play pretty good on this horn, a Winship & Sons [local stencil] that's fairly deep and cone-shaped and that I originally thought might be the best one for this but wasn't, and a Conn 4, mostly to replace the one I chewed up as a kid.) $100 even for all of this largesse. That was a bit more than I'd wanted to spend, but the Pilczuk leadpipe ought to have some resale value if I don't end up going through with this. If I do keep it, it's still not all that much money for a usable Alto trumpet. The Pilczuk's step sizing is intended for a B♭ trumpet and so might be working against an F/E♭ horn's intonation, but I can't imagine that it'll be worse than the Frumpet's own leadpipe!
I did some research, and surf/shopping, and ended up ordering a Jet-Tone Studio 1D mouthpiece for $20, which is one of the largest and deepest trumpet mouthpieces available. We'll see if it works better than the 3C. I should probably keep an eye peeled for the Bach 9AT, a rare contralto E♭ trumpet mouthpiece...The 1D works, and is a huge piece. It does go down to the lowest normal notes, and seems to have pedal potential (not that I've ever been able to do those). It remains to be seen if it's otherwise better (for me) than the 3C.
I'm not the only one with delusions of Frumpet grandeur. This from an eBay auction on June 24, 2009, where it eventually sold in the $200–300 range:
Modified Getzen Frumpet with Conn 77H Connquest bell and trombone leadpipe.I had this idea about what a Frumpet should actually be—a contralto-voiced horn in F/E♭ with a trumpet-like sound. Sadly, that's not what Getzen built. The original Frumpet, with its huge bell throat and French Horn-sized mouthpiece, has more in common with a mellophone than it does with a trumpet. I decided to remedy the situation. I modified the bell tail of a Conn trombone bell to bring it up to the proper diameter, changed out the leadpipe for one from a small-bore trombone, and the result is what you see in the picture. It can be played with either a trombone or a trumpet mouthpiece.
I've built several of these and loved every one of them, but the one I play regularly uses an old gold-plate Martin bell with superb engraving, so I figured I'd pass this one on to someone else. It has an excellent tone, and better intonation than a stock Frumpet. It's still quirky, intonation-wise, but my experience has been that this is par for the course for horns in this particular range.
Update: Thursday, June 25, 2009. I took an old silver hoop earring from the workbench and bent it into an S shape, trying to model up some standoffs. I'd meant to make two as I'd once had a bunch of these things leftover from some project, but I could only find one earring. It looked halfway decent afterwards, though I need to polish out the plier bites. Anyway, I then used two nylon tie-wraps to lash the Pilczuk to the main leadpipe, making sure to pass an extra bight on each tie between the pipes to keep them from scraping together. Good enough to handle, anyway. I then noodled on the horn for a bit. I'm not sure I have any conclusions yet other than that the Studio 1D mouthpiece is huge!
More mouthpiece info from: http://www.alsmiddlebrasspages.com/mellophone/Eb_vs_F.html
"It all starts with the mouthpiece, and the mouthpiece diameter suited to an instrument of this type and range runs from around 18.50 mm to 20.00 mm. There is also the cup-shape, aperture and back-bore to consider."The Bach 9AT is 19.00 mm, OK. And from: http://www.mouthpieceexpress.com/specshub/comparisons/comparison_idx.html
The JT1D is 17.47 mm, for example.A Schilke 24 (tpt) is 18.29 mm (medium depth), the largest I've yet found. The Marcinkiewicz E.17 is 18.16 mm (deep). Narrower are Schilke 22 at 18.03 mm and Schilke 20 at 17.78 mm, both medium depth.
I think I also want to try a Schilke 24. I bid on one, but didn't get it. I later found a local guy who was selling a Bach 9AT (Alto Trumpet) mouthpiece on Craigslist, I bought it for $20. Those don't turn up too often, and this one was even local. A quick noodle on the Frumpet showed that it was quite playable, and the intonation was very promising.
I found another fun quote on the Horn-u-copia site:
Patented in 1890, the cornophones were but another regurgitation of what by then was an old idea, which might explain their lack of success. The cornophone is a hybrid instrument, after the fashion of the soprano Koenig horn, soprano Ballad horn (liedhorn), Vocal horn, and in the 20th century, the Getzen Frumpet.
Another eBay auction of a modified Frumpet (and a beautiful job it was too), BIN of about $1000, it sold for about $800:
This auction is for one unique horn. A little background: It started out as an ordinary Getzen Frumpet—you can find lots of these on eBay. What you won't find is a lot of honest information about how miserable these instruments play. Frumpets don't play very well at all—they have tiny leadpipes and use a French Horn mouthpiece. They tend to be hard to slot and always out of tune. Needless to say the Frumpet never really caught on. Nonetheless you find others on eBay touting their virtues....My idea was to tame this beast and make it into a versatile instrument for Trumpet players. To start I had the entire instrument overhauled by Steve Winans (a.k.a. Dr. Valve—best in the business). But I knew that even with an overhaul and precision valve job it would still play like a Frumpet. The magic comes from changing out the tiny leadpipe to a bigger one that still works with the Getzen slides, but that takes a Trumpet mouthpiece. Eureka—the horn plays quite wonderfully now. It took us several attempts to find the recipe, before it went off to Anderson Silver Plating (also the best in the business).
In the end the horn is essentially an Alto Flugelhorn/Trumpet. It plays in either E♭ or F (both slides are included—shown with E♭ slide installed). My original goal was to make a crossover horn that could play the Bari Sax parts in my Funk & Soul Band. It works! I play trombone as well, but this has more bite than the bone, and it's smaller—fitting nicely on stage... AND, you can switch back and forth from trumpet with no transition.
Several attempts? That's a tiny bit discouraging. Oh well! I contacted him after the auction was over as to the details of his modification. He says:
I used a very open leadpipe (free blowing) from MK and a custom mouthpiece from Karl Hammond (master craftsman!). The mouthpiece is for a trumpet, but it is very large with a pretty deep cup (bigger than a Schilke 22). I could play my Frumpet with my normal lead-mouthpiece, but the slotting would be pretty slippery. The large mouthpiece settles the instrument down and makes it very playable.The main downfall of the Frumpet design is there is way too much compression in the front of the horn for the length of instrument. This approach works for a French Horn because there is so much more tubing length. So, the main lesson I learned was to reduce the initial compression, and this is accomplished with the larger leadpipe and mouthpiece. It is a very similar approach to a Flugelhorn.
...this was a while ago, so I may not remember every step. I believe I tried it with a leadpipe of a Getzen 300 Trumpet just so I could get rid of the (unbearable) French Horn mouthpiece. The results were encouraging: it was slightly more steady or predictable, but the tuning was just weird. The primary fingerings sounded like odd alternate fingerings. There were overtones in the notes that just didn't sound right, I think this is what makes the Frumpet sound like it is horribly out-of-tune in the first place. I was actually able to measure and look at these overtones using some equipment from B&K.
My education is in Engineering, Acoustics primarily, but I also have a BA in Trumpet Performance. I read a few books on brass instrument making, re-read some text books on wave theory, and made some acoustic models with speakers and tubes. I hypothesized that somewhere in the amplification train, unwanted overtones were being introduced. By comparison, the Trumpet has fewer overtones than a Cornet, and much fewer than a Flugel. The Frumpet has a pile of them. You get more and more overtones by increasing the rate of flare in brass instrument. This is one reason why a Calicchio has very brilliant sound that projects across a room (frowned upon in the Symphony), and Bach has a rich, round sound that some would describe as stuffy (jaded lead player...). So, if you have a huge change in the rate of flare from the mouthpiece to the bell (which the Frumpet has in spades), you actually get so many overtones that some of them are simply not pleasant (my opinion).
To take the overtones out, decrease the rate of flare. The original Getzen 300 pipe still had the small diameter opening going to a larger diameter tuning slide end. It was starting to sound better because the trumpet mouthpiece has a relatively small cup going into a relatively large receiver, compared to the massive cup of a French Horn mouthpiece going into a tiny receiver. So I decided to move to a leadpipe that was as open as possible: a custom pipe from MK that had as little taper as possible (meaning: fewer overtones).
Once I got the horn back with the custom leadpipe I tried a Schilke 13a4a mouthpiece. The instrument was getting close, much more "in tune" and the slotting (the crispness of the notes) was much improved. Yet, it was still a little squirrelly for me—I could intend to play an A (1&2), and if I wasn't super-focused I might get a C♯ or an E. This would only get worse as I played the instrument higher, where the notes get closer together and even more notes become available for a given fingering. This is when I decided to talk with Karl Hammond (the best mouthpiece maker out there). He said "yep, I bet it is squirrelly." He made me a mouthpiece with a a very large diameter (outer and inner) and a fairly large throat (again, less change in diameter going to the receiver). I think I paid $140 for the piece. A few days later it arrived in the mail. I tried it in what I had come to call my Twumpet, and suddenly the instrument snapped to attention and became quite playable.
If I were to continue working on the instrument (and had lots of money to throw at it), I might have tried another version with all the previous modification plus a custom Bell, one with a more gradual flare to the bell end.
I was actually able to use mine quite a bit. It worked well for covering Bari parts (not the lowest notes) filling out the harmony in my ToP cover band. I suppose it would have faster, cheaper, and easier to simply transpose the parts and play them on my trombone. But sometimes, Engineering is about doing something because you can, not because it is practical...
So, my advice is find a standard leadpipe that is big and free blowing—maybe a Calicchio #9 or a Bach 25. I'm not an expert on off-the-shelf leadpipes. I think the one you mentioned before is more of a step bore job? That might be giving you some trouble.
The $20 Schilke 24 I ordered from a guy on TPIN finally came, and looks good. At the moment it bottoms out in the horn's leadpipe so it doesn't quite seat, but it can still be played. I had an interesting session with the Bach 9AT, Jet-Tone 1D, the Schilke 24, and the Bach 3C that actually works pretty well in it (though not too well below the staff). They're all different, the 1D actually feels a bit bigger than the 24 even though it measures smaller—must be the rim shape. (The 1D was made from a much larger blank. The 24 actually has a fairly narrow rim.) Early days, but the 9AT is a bit too low and muffled sounding for what I want, though it does the low register very nicely. (It tends to go flat up high, which I'm told is a sign of a too-big mouthpiece.) I'll probably end up on the 1D or the 24, depending on how I feel over time. I waffled back and forth in the initial session, and also enjoyed the 9AT. The 3C just had too much trouble going down and was a bit wobbly going up. (Too small.) (I was mangling the first passage of the Neruda Trumpet Concerto in E♭, in E♭ on Frumpet-oid. [The music came transposed both for B♭ and E♭—handy.] I had some trouble with the pitch, playing in a different key apparently confuses my ear.)
I'm starting to wonder what a different leadpipe might play like. I don't think I'm quite ready to commit to the Pilczuk yet. The horn seems to like a lot of alternate fingerings, such as 3 instead of 1-2, everywhere, and 1-3 for all D's. It still feels like I'm fighting the intonation. That may be inherent, or it may be tamable with more leadpipe/mouthpiece experimentation. The surprise appearance of the Bass Cornet on the scene has meant that I haven't been playing with the Frumpet nearly as much as I had intended to, so progress is slow. I did get an anonymous $8.50 "11" French Horn mouthpiece on eBay, just to keep in the case for comparison purposes. (If it's going to be a double-leadpipe comparison horn, it'll need a mouthpiece for the alternative.)
I'm told that one can read bass clef (C) parts on E♭ instruments merely by pretending that it's treble clef B♭ and adding three sharps. This is usually more useful when using an E♭ tuba, bass clef being what it is, but it should also work here though it would probably sound an octave up from what was desired.
Thursday, July 29, 2010 I felt like playing a bit, but the bass cornet was down because I'd loaned out all the mouthpieces to a friend for a safari, so I dug out the Frumpet again and tried some comparative playing of the Neruda, to try to figure out which mouthpiece to concentrate on. Leaving out the 3C, as not being in the same league as the others, it was pure Goldilocks time: the 9AT was too muffled for my vision (though it does the low register very well), the 1D was too harsh, and that left the Schilke 24 as the man in the middle, the compromise choice. Pity it doesn't fit the receiver right, it bottoms out against the leadpipe unless I put a wrap of pop can metal around it. I will try to have a few more evaluation sessions before I truly commit to it. (I really want to like the Jet-Tone best because it's shiny new and looks and feels good, but I don't think it plays the best here. I want a distinctively alto sound, and the JT is edging a bit too close to the regular trumpet timbre.)
Tuesday, June 7, 2011 I got a Benge 6 alto horn mouthpiece in the mail, $10 through eBay. The shank is much too small, it needed a serious paper wrap to fit. But it played OK. I don't think, however, that it's notably better than what I already have. It is smaller than the 9AT, yet larger than any of the trumpet mouthpieces. The cup is deep, it's overly dark sounding to my taste. I'm still wanting to like the JT 1D best. If I ever do scrape up anything to play on this for real I'm sure I'll be better equipped then to make a proper choice.
Saturday, October 1, 2011 I decided to try it on something real, in the practice room anyway. The community band is doing Rimsky-Korsakov's Procession of Nobles (a.k.a. Cortège from Mlada). Ol' R-K claims to practically have invented the F Alto trumpet, just for this and some of his other contemporary works; he says that one of these mixed with regular trumpets results in a better sound. Our arrangement (Leidzén) is scored for 5 B♭ trumpets, so I scared up some original parts from the orchestral suite, via IMSLP, and found it scored for two B♭ trumpets and one F Alto trumpet (the F Alto opens the piece). So I got out the Frumpet, put it in F, and started trying this piece with the various mouthpieces. All of the trumpet mouthpieces were a bit squirrely at the top of the staff, even the biggest ones; I had trouble making it sound 'heroic'. The 9AT was still a bit too dark, but at least it stayed on the notes. The Benge 6, however, seemed to be the best (today) at rendering this piece, somewhat in between the other two extremes; neither too dark nor squirrely. I don't know if this is going to go anywhere, or whether I'll even get the same results another day. (I have the T1 part, not whichever one opens the piece, so it's unlikely that I personally will be trying out the Frumpet in the ensemble.)
Friday, June 10, 2016: I may end up doing a call-and-response thing with an alphorn on Sunday, so I got out the Frumpet and got it ready to play, in F. While trying to practice the looseness of the lashed-on leadpipe was becoming untenable, so I used some Shoe Goo to secure it. Once dried I polished the tarnished leadpipe, it shined easily. I found that each of the four mouthpieces I keep in the case (9AT, 6, 1D, 24) sound different, and all have things to recommend them. (Also, all have distinct weaknesses too.) There is no clear choice. I suppose for this proposed gig I'll go with what the music director wants out of it. I used heat-shrink tubing to make the 6 and the 24 fit better. (The 6 needed two layers!) It's a lot more secure than a paper wrap!
Tuesday, August 10, 2021: I'd recently ordered a Wick 5 Alto horn mouthpiece ($57 from ProWinds), their smallest such, and today I got a chance to try it out. Of all the non-trumpet mouthpieces it was the most comfortable, because of its size, and the shank also fit well into the trumpet leadpipe. However, it's probably the darkest of the bunch, having a very deep V cup. (Wick says the #5 is also their deepest cup, because apparently they're going for a more-or-less constant cup volume across their alto line.) For an 'alto flugelhorn' role it would probably be a good choice, but what I really want is something a lot less dark, with a richer (more harmonics) sound. This #5 is still not what I'm looking for, that Schilke 24 might yet be the closest so far, though it is far from ideal. Re-checking online, I see that Bach offers a line of Alto horn mouthpieces, smaller than the 9AT but with a trumpet shank: the A377 line. (The M377 line for mellophones has a smaller shank.) I ordered ($64 from ProWinds) one of these with the smallest (#12) rim; they called it an A33712 (note the 377/337 discrepancy).
